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OOC: How I intend to start this allianceness stuff
Posted: Oct 28 2012, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Wight @ Oct 28 2012, 07:25 PM)
QUOTE (Leorudo @ Oct 28 2012, 05:57 PM)
2)Having only ONE airship can't seem too unreasonable for a nation that is forced to use airforce instead of navy/army because we are put on a lake with no ocean access and two nations surronding us on both sides.

It's because of this that I'm having trouble with the whole idea of Leorudo militarised ports simply popping up all over AO, to be honest. Personally I think you should look at Star's 'building a military' for a start, and then win your ports, one by one.

Win them from what?

These are colonies, not land conquered from an enemy. The problem is going to be after the ports become economic hubs, making everyone rich, then something happens that makes someone jealous, then we have a regional crisis.
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 04:36 AM
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QUOTE (Leorudo @ Oct 28 2012, 10:57 PM)
QUOTE (Falcania @ Oct 28 2012, 04:49 PM)
The thing is, military budgets aren't just shopping budgets. Procurement is going to be a sizeable portion of that, but it's not like your department of defence can really "save up" for this sort of thing.

Look at real life. The UK has spent billions of dollars on building two aircraft carriers that pretty much everyone is agreed are too expensive - it's a controversial move. Each one is costing £3.9 billion. In comparison, the defence budget in the UK last year was £45 billion. Of which £7.8 billion over 6-8 years was considered too much! I find it always best to err on the side of extreme conservatism when it comes to military procurement - aside from the slated introduction of my aircraft carriers (which are on a vague schedule) my military has maintained roughly the same size year-on-year.

As such, I'd be more than happy to have loaned you the FAV Raptor on a loaner as the Navigatio. Bearing in mind that currently I'd only have, in service, then, the FAV Phoenix, Feather, Vulture and Hawk, how ahead that would put you in terms of military aviation.

Okay, I guess we could use this, but even better, you could loan it to me in secret and I will give you some, port benifits, if you will. I just don't really like the idea of going rouge.

But, maybe near the end of this thing I'll roll this thing out, because A)I would have studied yours for ways to make one cheaper and 2)Having only ONE airship can't seem too unreasonable for a nation that is forced to use airforce instead of navy/army because we are put on a lake with no ocean access and two nations surronding us on both sides.

But if that seems to unreasonable, I'll just have to cut some money from the education department and maybe get some finacial aid from a few allies.

The only thing about this that irks me is the idea of making a cheaper airship. These things are premium engineering - if you want to make it cheaper, that's fine, but you're going to have an attendant loss of quality and functionality. Cheapo militaries are fine, and quality militaries are fine, but both in the same package is a little hard.
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Falcania @ Oct 29 2012, 04:36 AM)
The only thing about this that irks me is the idea of making a cheaper airship. These things are premium engineering - if you want to make it cheaper, that's fine, but you're going to have an attendant loss of quality and functionality. Cheapo militaries are fine, and quality militaries are fine, but both in the same package is a little hard.

Well, when you think about it, the airship is just a few metal plates pulled together with my "fan-like" turbines. Then turbines can be moved forward or backward, creating movement of the giant steel plates. To power these turbines I'll need some energy. If the classic petroleum wouldn't do, so I can either
A)Reactor in the Hull.(Hell of a last resort considering you can kamakaze meltdown while flying at an object if your not going to finish the mission.)
B)Some form of highly storagable energy using that new MIT process(I'll post a link if you want) that can be picked up from refueling docks placed at, you guessed it, my little ports around the region.

I also just got
"Military demands increased spending"
and
"Orbital Armegeddon"
on my issues, so that might help increase spending a bit.

For the scientists in the group:
Also, just a quick little theory, but if the turning of wind turbines gives you electricity, then why not power the ship on it's own spinning motion? So you could kill two birds with one stone, and even if that is not enough power to keep the turbines spinning, wouldn't it atleast somewhat help it? blink.gif
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Leorudo @ Oct 29 2012, 03:59 PM)
For the scientists in the group:
Also, just a quick little theory, but if the turning of wind turbines gives you electricity, then why not power the ship on it's own spinning motion?

The first and second laws of thermodynamics say no.
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (Wight @ Oct 29 2012, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE (Leorudo @ Oct 29 2012, 03:59 PM)
For the scientists in the group:
Also, just a quick little theory, but if the turning of wind turbines gives you electricity, then why not power the ship on it's own spinning motion?

The first and second laws of thermodynamics say no.

Danggit.

Reactor it is.
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (Leorudo @ Oct 29 2012, 08:59 PM)
QUOTE (Falcania @ Oct 29 2012, 04:36 AM)
The only thing about this that irks me is the idea of making a cheaper airship. These things are premium engineering - if you want to make it cheaper, that's fine, but you're going to have an attendant loss of quality and functionality. Cheapo militaries are fine, and quality militaries are fine, but both in the same package is a little hard.

Well, when you think about it, the airship is just a few metal plates pulled together with my "fan-like" turbines. Then turbines can be moved forward or backward, creating movement of the giant steel plates. To power these turbines I'll need some energy. If the classic petroleum wouldn't do, so I can either
A)Reactor in the Hull.(Hell of a last resort considering you can kamakaze meltdown while flying at an object if your not going to finish the mission.)
B)Some form of highly storagable energy using that new MIT process(I'll post a link if you want) that can be picked up from refueling docks placed at, you guessed it, my little ports around the region.

I also just got
"Military demands increased spending"
and
"Orbital Armegeddon"
on my issues, so that might help increase spending a bit.

For the scientists in the group:
Also, just a quick little theory, but if the turning of wind turbines gives you electricity, then why not power the ship on it's own spinning motion? So you could kill two birds with one stone, and even if that is not enough power to keep the turbines spinning, wouldn't it atleast somewhat help it? blink.gif

You've just had your airship privileges revoked. This is just... ridiculous. Nuclear-powered all-metal aircraft carriers? Even at our craziest we're not flying with this.

The Phoenix-class Aircraft Carrier (Falcanian military standard) uses a series of diesel generators powering several massive turbofans, and an extensive series of gaseous cells to aid buoyancy. On its own its range is incredibly limited, and it requires extensive and consistent logistical support from other aircraft to be able to sustain flight on campaign. Each carrier has at least two dedicated fuel tenders and a supply tender. Exorbitantly difficult to run, but the general effect it gives is that you can, with very little notice, essentially take an air force base and fly it over several continents to land it somewhere else. This is not a logistically easy endeavour.

Consider that a real aircraft carrier can float in the ocean with all the power off. It's generating more than a hundred megawatts on its main reactors alone. And it needs all that energy to power things that *aren't* making the ship float. Have you got any idea of the amount of power you'd need to power enough to make a "few metal plates" (Several thousand tonnes of steel at least) fly at any significant altitude? There's a reason these things haven't been invented in real life.

TL;DR - Flying aircraft carriers break the rules, and if you want to play with them like I do, you have to make it *hard* to use them, compared to just ordinary ships.
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 09:59 PM
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Well, that and the fact that if all of one of those turbines dies, it becomes a several billion dollar scrap heap. And it takes all of one easily-camouflageable artillery piece or SAM to send that thing plummeting.
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 10:00 PM
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Alright, well I guess I will edit that out then and have the operation room in an LDI Outpost.
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Posted: Oct 29 2012, 10:42 PM
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Re-reading through your stuff, I uh... hate to break it to you, but... some of the heaviest duty cargo choppers can lift around 15-20 tons.

A battleship weighs tens of thousands.

You're not lifting it with eight, unless your battleships are made of cardboard or something. Also, battleships are a horribly outdated means of naval combat, but that's entirely irrelevant to the point.

If you really want to bring ships from place to place, you're going to have seize a drydock, bring your ships in, dismantle them, convoy them piece by piece (and make sure they can be disassembled into small enough pieces to BE convoyed) to the other side of the continent, seize a drydock on THAT side, re-assemble the cargo ships, and load everything. Given the amount of manpower and vehicular support that would require, you're probably bringing more cargo ships to the first drydock than you'll actually disassemble just so that you can convoy everything, and not all the vehicles you bring to convoy will make it on to the ships to the other side because of space. Welcome to the infinitesimally complex world of logistics.

You could theoretically do the same with combat ships, but you'd basically have to pay for rebuilding an entire damn combat vessel, which is going to be absurdly expensive. Cargo ships are a bit more reasonable, if only because you can keep a fairly simplistic design and have it do what's necessary.

This post has been edited by Geisenfried on Oct 29 2012, 10:49 PM
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Posted: Oct 30 2012, 01:58 AM
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While I do not have a problem with these Leorudo controlled ports simply popping up (entire nations pop in and out after all) I do have to say that any military units should be realisic enough to be feasible. Falc is correct in just how rare and hard those kind of airshps should be to own and operate.

Now to the part I really have an issue with. Even if Leorudo is accepted into the CCS, and as far a I know tha is not a given point, it seems a bit ludicrous to think that other member nations would send aid to back any move you made simply because you made it. There is a very real limit to how much military backing you would recieve depending upon each situation as it arises. First and foremost, we all have our own interests to look after. And we would support one another to the extent that it did not endanger our own holdings and/or initiatives.


Savski Venac had it right when they watched my Burk'dyngr expansion rather suspiciously even though they are full CCS members.

Dont go around throwing other people's weight to make your points.
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Posted: Oct 30 2012, 02:06 AM
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QUOTE (Geisenfried @ Oct 29 2012, 09:59 PM)
Well, that and the fact that if all of one of those turbines dies, it becomes a several billion dollar scrap heap. And it takes all of one easily-camouflageable artillery piece or SAM to send that thing plummeting.

That is sort of my military take. How many Apache type helicopters could I put in the air with the money it would cost to build, fly, and maintain that beast? I kind of like the odds that unlikely head to head confrontation would give me.

I might suffer heavy losses, but she would come crashing down. And I would be able to rebuild my losses far faster to boot.
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Posted: Oct 30 2012, 06:28 AM
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Leorudo and I have had a brief discussion on this point over TG.

In addition, Falcania's a bit of a special case, in that they're probably rather keen to use Leorudo as a puppet in a proxy war manoeuvre with Starblaydia, and they're also quite likely to try and drag ASMV in on the act.
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Posted: Oct 30 2012, 04:35 PM
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Alright guys, well this is about to get really intresting.

What I have planned is: Due to my incomprehension of moving military units, I would carry out this plan, but the helicopters would not make it past the first thirty feet(and maybe crash) and my little private company gets all mad because my government plan was flat out stupid and resigns their help from the cause. So then I would have to keep my naval assests in Lake Bekk until I have a legitimate port built in an ocean, but to even to get that I will need international help. So I would ask for help from my Falcania to help me place my claim on Falcania's map expansion one the far side of the continent. It would look like they are just helping because I am part of their map expansion, so no BIG meltdowns should occur. Then I can fly my battleships, piece by piece, out to this little port and build my navy from there, then I would take my claims upward one by one.

Also, whoever that was who posted on the IC thread, please do a little recon besides saying "Our intelligence agency has picked up activity! We now totally see what they are doing!" Do this, and I will be fine with you intervining.

Is everyone okay with this?

Edit: Also, I think before any more major IC posts, I will post them here first so they are not set in stone. It may be a bit more red tape, but I think it could be worth it in the long run.


This post has been edited by Leorudo on Oct 30 2012, 10:45 PM
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Posted: Oct 31 2012, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE (Leorudo @ Oct 30 2012, 10:35 PM)
Edit: Also, I think before any more major IC posts, I will post them here first so they are not set in stone. It may be a bit more red tape, but I think it could be worth it in the long run.

I've always found that working out the grand strokes of schemes like this with friends and enemies alike helps massively in the long run - like how we vaguely arranged Operation Galactica the first time (in which I said 'OK guys, you let me run over TLC and give me enough time to look awesome doing that, then dogpile me back to my borders and something interesting will happen when I lose').

It allows everyone to be comfortable (and knowledgeable, of course) with where we're heading, and still spring a few surprises. Knowing what the outcome will be makes those surprises (such as 'Hey! Tiny nation with flying aircraft carriers ahoy!') much easier to deal with. It's horrible to have to say 'Woah betsy!' in the middle of someone else's flow because, as much as everyone wants to win, this is a co-operative story we're writing together, so we all have to be happy with the outcome, one way or another.

I like the idea that some group of idiots thinks they can transport battleships via helicopter (after all, that's what the game says happens when you move regions, right?) and then when it all goes horribly wrong they come up with another plan.

I also like the fact that Falc would lend you a Phoenix-class Aircraft Carrier - but this of course would require Leorudo being in the CCS, which I think Falcania is more open to due to the whole Cuba/USA allegory, seeing if they can watch a proxy war with Starblaydia.

On a random separate couple of points about your IC Thread - You've posted on average once per day, which is way more than I can manage, and probably others to. We've had no 'rp time' to react to it if we've needed to. I know from my point of view that there would be a fairly massive naval stand-off if your ships (or anyone's, as a matter of fact) tried to slip down the Nemyan Straight between mainland Starblaydia and Aquiliana.

TL:DR - Good overall, chill a little and keep it believable, we're all working together here smile.gif
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Posted: Oct 31 2012, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (Starblaydia @ Oct 31 2012, 11:21 AM)
Knowing what the outcome will be makes those surprises (such as 'Hey! Tiny nation with flying aircraft carriers ahoy!') much easier to deal with.

See, when Galactica rolled around, I was a tiny nation with an orange flag, animal-based name and flying aircraft carriers, and I made a right bollocks of it. So this is the voice of experience coming through.
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