Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format |
AO Forum :: > Regional Discussion > OOC: Thoughts on RPing, Stats and War |
Posted by: Starblaydia Jun 13 2006, 01:24 PM | ||
So, yeah, we're all aware that AO is looking like it's heading for the first truly hot war in ages. Like, region-wide. And this has got me thinking (yes, I bet you can smell something burning from where you are, too) about relative power and forces and military strength of the various combatants. Those combatants, judging on recent RPing will be Me Vs 'Everyone Else'. Starblaydia Stick, for those with knowledge of English Football terminology. Hoorah. Now, the post that really got me thinking on this was one of Lamoni's latest in the AR Missile Testing thread. And, I quote:
Now, yes you can take this as yet more Lamoni-Economy-Bashing (which it kinda is, but is part of a general point about using NS stats in RPs), but let's consider that for a moment. First, some definitions. Squardron: "An air force, army aviation or naval aviation squadron typically consists of three or four flights, with a total of 12 to 24 aircraft, depending on aircraft type and air force." The F-22 Raptor (cost):"In April 2006, the Government Accountability Office estimated the cost to $361 million per aircraft" Ok, so, being conservative, that's 4 squadrons of 12 = 48 aircraft. 48 aircraft at $360 million each is a total of $17.2 billion. Lamonian annual defence budget (according to NSEconomy): Defence: $66,619,934,395.20 (13%) $66 billion. So those four squadrons, to buy, represent a quarter of what the Lamonian Government spends on defence in a year. And that's quite a lot for less than 50 planes. Don't convert that into Lamoni's currency - Rushanas - unless you like working in trillions. "But this is just a diatribe against Lamoni because you don't like how many planes/guns/etc he says has!" I hear you cry. But this is just based on stats that NS gives out and NSEconomy spits out some numbers - admittedly biased against high-tax economies. So? Well, Lamoni also has 7.5 billion people in it, there's an NS stat that is used very often to determine RP numbers, like percentages of population in the armed forces. 'I have more people than you, therefore more people in the army. I have an imploded economy, but that doesn't matter.' See what I mean? Each nation has both good and bad points that surely must translate into RP, based on whether you want to use the stats or not. Let's turn the attention to Starblaydia, for once. Yes, enormous military spending = lots of guns, a place where the national budget is quite literally more than one hundred times larger than Lamoni's. But then again it is a dictatorship. Even in South America where ex-dictatorships are doing really badly as Democracies, they're not yelling for a dictator to take control back. It's very hard to love a dictatorship, and so Starblaydia's people are, comparatively, not as loyal to their nation as those in free states. Unless you point a TV camera at them, and they have to love the state or else they'll be hunted down. Indoctrination, small-scale brainwashing and large-scale propaganda can only get you so far. Spending 20 trillion dollars a year on the military allows nations like Starblaydia (and democracies too, don't forget) to field enough battleships, tanks, planes and - yes - spacecraft to flatten a country. So, military-wise, take a look at your nation. Check it on NSEconomy (or similar) http://thirdgeek.com/nseconomy/nseconomy.php. Just what can you field, what can you afford? Look at your nation, itis stats and how you RP it objectively, if you can, and then see what you come up with. Oh boy this has been longer than I thought, but hopefully worth it. Now you can reply, if you want. And please do, I'd like some other input on this. Star |
Posted by: Pacitalia Jun 13 2006, 01:34 PM |
/pwn You're right on that. Basically I feel if you're not willing to put in the work on the main NS site you shouldn't be RPing a total opposite on the forums. Put some realism into your work. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Jun 13 2006, 01:39 PM | ||
Thanks, Pac. I wouldn't quite put it that way, though, as clicking 'less taxes' and 'more guns' in appropriate issues is too simple for this as there's no 'right way' to run a nation. |
Posted by: Pacitalia Jun 13 2006, 01:42 PM | ||||
Quite, quite. Though I've noticed with some players they find it incredibly difficult to gain and maintain a high standard of economic strength and social liberties. The issues do present a complex mix. One could totally screw you over economically but raise your civil liberties level, another could give boosts to both if you know what to choose. You know what I mean? It's still a bit complicated based on past decisions and whatnot. That said, I agree that the effort needs to be put into the RP. It's not too difficult to get a higher military budget and an at least reasonable economy, so once one gets that he/she can just focus on the RP at hand, where the talent and effort should be going. |
Posted by: Falcania Jun 13 2006, 01:47 PM |
This is why I don't RP as having a particularly impressive military. And also why I generally stay out of solitary war. I'm fair game for alliances, though. Crack troops, anyone? |
Posted by: Starblaydia Jun 13 2006, 01:51 PM |
Who wants to maintain "high standard of economic strength and social liberties"? I like my dictatorship, thankyou very much! Issue answering either reflects your national culture or your own personal culture - I think players tend to use their nations as one or the other - and whichever you decide to play as, that is your nation's culture on NS. If you're a Tyranny By Majority, for instance, RP as one in all its aspects - the same with any other type of UN Classification. Unless your Issue-Choice had an undesired effect on the category. For instance, last time I was in the UN Starblaydia suddenly became an Inoffensive Centrist Democracy because I allowed political cartoons - something it certainly wasn't. So I still RPed as a Dictatorship (and am now back as a Father Knows Best state, where I want to be), just with the twist that 'those fools at the UN' took Provincal Governor voting to be 'Some' Political freedoms. |
Posted by: Hockey Canada Jun 13 2006, 02:16 PM |
/agree You could just do what I do. Use harsh elements as a good defence, make mid-quality weapons for mass-amounts of troops, make mid-quality tanks and ships (or use ally's ships) for transport. I spend quite a bit of funding to make excellent planes, just not 361 million per craft. About 1.3 Million per craft at least. With my exchange rate and great economy, I can do the math to figure out my other military spending evenly. Star is right, NSEconomy is a great way to determine every little budget spending. There is even a "Defence" sector. |
Posted by: Commerce Heights Jun 13 2006, 03:29 PM | ||
First, NSEconomy stats have never been adjusted for inflation. For example, the price of gold in USD has gone up approximately 43% since 2004–04–24 (from 1 g Au being worth USD 12.712 to 18.173), according to xe.com. Since NSEconomy was created sometime around 2004–04–24, I use the exchange rate on that day when converting from NSEconomy USD to gold. Second, even if we accept NSEconomy figures without adjusting for inflation, it’s absurd that the Capitalizt government has a budget of USD 36.4 trillion. Divide that number by 100 000, and it might still be a bit high. And finally, since the government’s pathetic military (which is now even more pathetic after the war in Lukeonia) would be irrelevant in any significant conflict, what good would stats do in determining the strength of the Capitalizt Defense Alliance and Capitalizt Coalition for Coöperation in Protection? |
Posted by: Starblaydia Jun 13 2006, 05:00 PM |
Now that really trashes any arguement worth having over stats, but as everyone's 'suffering;' from that same lack of 43% rise, does it actually matter when figuring these things out? As for the enormous budgets, we are dealing with billions of citizens in most cases, far bigger than China, some even bigger than the world. If an RL single world economy was all run in the same way, then wouldnt numbers into the trillions be gained from tax? Stats give you budgets, which give you how much you can spend on things. Seems pretty simple to me: Buy stuff, develop and produce stuff, maintain stuff. Probably more simple than in reality, but something that you can play about with in an RP framework, at least. |
Posted by: Geisenfried Jun 13 2006, 05:14 PM |
I'm slightly surprised. Despite having priorities toward social welfare (education, social equality and healthcare are my top three priorities), and having a pro-environment government, I still manage to have about a trillion dollars in defense, according to NSEconomy. Go 100% tax rate! Anyway, I've always tried to set my military to be similar to the United States with a few improvements here and there. While my air force has units modeled after the F-22 and F-35, with some adjustments, they're currently considered too costly for full-scale production, and so my mainstay fighter is basically a slightly improved version of the F-16. My navy has no superdreadnaughts (far too costly to buy and maintain) and instead is carrier-based, with a few large non-carrier ships, the Dominance-class battleship, which is basically and improved version of the Iowa, and the Defiance-class, which is basically a Ticonderoga on steroids. Even then, I don't have very many of them. My army doesn't have anything special either. |
Posted by: Lontorika Jun 13 2006, 06:13 PM | ||||||
(EDIT: This is, of course, CH’s puppet…)
Whether inflation is significant depends on what things you’re figuring out. If you’re comparing two figures that are adjusted for inflation, it doesn’t matter, if you’re comparing two figures that aren’t adjusted for inflation, it also doesn’t matter. But if you’re comparing the inflated price of an F-22 to the unadjusted Lamoni defense budget, it might matter.
I wasn’t talking about a generic nation of 6.5 billion people, I was talking specifically about my nation, in which there are no taxes, and the government budget is neither in the trillions nor the billions.
Stats give me government budgets, which are completely irrelevant in determining how much money a corporation has to spend on things. *sends Starblaydia back to capitalizm 101* |
Posted by: Bazalonia Jun 13 2006, 06:29 PM |
I am shocking when it comes to designing/determining anything related to war. As such I use pretty much exclusively Sarz's Storefront. But I am also starting to gather information for a potential project that I am looking at programming. Essentially it would be a Military Calculator: Takes XML data and uses NSEconomy algorithms to generate a budget for your military. Determine proportion of Budget going to Infantry, Navy, Airforce and Space Program. Ability to import data from any supporting storefronts (Most likely XML file) Use these details as well as setting an appropraite percentage of your popoulation that is in the armed forces to determine how much of what aircraft you can own. Will take into account administrative functions of the armed forces (heavily discussion on the NS Draftroom will take place for this) The aim is to provide military realism... This is still very much is still in the designing phase. |
Posted by: Hockey Canada Jun 13 2006, 07:51 PM | ||
Shut up... you and your silly mass-amounts of wealth |
Posted by: Khazaron Jun 13 2006, 11:31 PM |
I just wish I could figure out how to keep my economy from going down the toilet. Also, I'm pissed that the Mavs lost. Either way, for my military, I'm just relying on the fanatic loyalty of the troops to their leader...me. You'd be suprised what a few fanatics can do. *evil laugh* |
Posted by: Andossa Se Mitrin Vega Jun 14 2006, 12:08 AM |
I do like the idea, but have to agree with CH's points on the iflation values. I run my nation as a democratic socialist state but it tends to float back and forth to inoffensive centralist democracy. That doesnt bother me and does not change the way I RP it. As for my military, I have been doing things to make improvements, but ASMV is not a dominant nation by any means. Without spending for expensive aircraft as well a massing large numbers of soldiers, I do have some great ideas to even the odds. But that will come out a bit later with some new equipment designs i have been working on. As for my navy, it is fairly large, but most of it would have to be considered outdated by most. (Most ships based on refits of RL WWII through Vietnam Polish vessals). But hey, they work well enough with upgraded equipment. As I can afford to build or purchase newer ones, I will be doing so. But i do like the fact of having something to base things on. That eliminates the more ludicrous RP extremes. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Jun 14 2006, 05:43 AM |
Of course you have to agree with CH's inflation points as 1) he wrote the damn thing, and 2) we didnt know about it before. So we work in 2004 Dollar values instead of 2006. How difficult can it be to work out what inflation has done to the dollar since then and take account of it when looking at things like this? And, CH, if we're talking about 'regular' - if there is such a thing - NS nations based on RL government types, rather than the odd corporation set-up you have, is my point about the massive budgets valid? Baz: that sounds uber-complicated. Like, beyond the bounds of practial reason for military 'realism'. Go and propose that in the NS2 forum, Ahh, a good laugh., they'll love things like that. |
Posted by: Lontorika Jun 14 2006, 06:24 AM | ||
Yes. |
Posted by: Falcania Jun 14 2006, 08:14 AM |
I choose to run my nation as I think the UK should be run (minus, of course, turning us all into birds. I did that because that's cool.) We have a small, diligent army, a massive airforce (kinda goes with the birds) and a non-existent navy. Most of our money goes into the private sectors, which in turn provide everything. Privatisation is the future. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Jun 14 2006, 08:22 AM |
Define 'massive', though, 50 planes? 500 planes? 1,000? 10,000? Roughly how many and of what type is really what I'm thinking of. Are they all stealth fightery-bombery types or is there less advanced stuff like the F14s and 15s, for instance. |
Posted by: Falcania Jun 14 2006, 01:18 PM |
You've seen the flying brick. It consists pretty much of those, the older but faster F-2s and the occasional B-1. |
Posted by: Milchama Jun 14 2006, 01:38 PM |
Considering I spend about $9 trillion on the army in NSeconomy and the fact that my government is not set up like any RL government at all. Each city and town is its own kibbutz or socialist commune that compete against each other to get money. The most successful ones get more populated (like Port James which manufactured most nautical equipment now). Most of these kibbutzim at least manufacture some military gadgets. For example Hilfordshire, which is a medium big kibbutz that is a major food producer, also produces some planes as instructed by the Milchama government which tells the kibbutzim what to produce militarily. This being said, I'm not sure how big my army in comparison to some. I would assume it is pretty good as a lot of the government budget is spent on it and all citizens have served in the army in some capacity since they were 6. As for breaking it down, I would say a lot of infantry, most of the rest on the air force which is pretty high tech (the Milchamians believe that the air force and infantry are the two things that decide wars). The navy is half decent but nothing great and the arillery probably is very good but not very big. The calvalry (yes we still have some and yes there is a plausible if you ask) is probably about just as big as the artillery and used much more effectively. |
Posted by: Myrtannia Jun 14 2006, 05:39 PM |
Myrtannia's military, for what there is, consists of a force designed to fulfil the main objective of protecting the Allied States from outside aggression. To this end, I'd imagine the air force is of moderate size, with a larger (but still not huge) navy and a sizeable ground force. Mostly, this ground force is sort of the same vein as the Israel Defense Force, with mandatory service required of citizens when they turn 18. However, I for one would prefer to not get involved in a war, as I've spent considerable time attempting to avoid armed conflict. From my experience, military RPs on NS never turn out well. That's why Myrtannia's defense policy is the way it is - that armed force is only used if the country itself is in emminent danger. For example, Myrtannia would consider use of force against AR if said nation directly threatened Myrtannia. Or for that matter, even in the current situation. However, we would not attack an SAAS nation just because they're in a rival faction. If war comes region-wide, expect Myrtannia's government to vote the Allied States' membership in the SDL on hold indefinitely, should SDL nations go to war. I intend to remain neutral in the case of such a turn of events, and would ask that other people respect that and leave me out of it. Diplomacy I can do. Sports I can do. War RPs? No. In conclusion, I strongly insist and pretty much demand that in the event of a regional war, Myrtannia be considered to be like Switzerland, and left alone. Though I might consider setting up clandestine bank accounts for people on both sides of the conflict. |
Posted by: Casari Jun 14 2006, 05:44 PM |
Well, after doing the math, I'm spending about $424,000 per person in the military. Huh about that. There is one thing with aircraft and vehicles, and that's that you don't exactly buy every single plane and every single tank you have every single year. The same thing with ships and such. So a direct comparison from the military budget to the price of a plane doesn't strike me as the most accurate thing in the world. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Jun 15 2006, 03:47 AM | ||
You do pay for their initial purchase and constant upkeep though, along with personnel salaries, food, fuel and all sorts of other things. The actual purchase of things each 'year' would come out of the procurement budget, which would be a sizeable chunk of the overall defence budget. Does your X-million/billion dollar budget mean you can actually keep all of these things running, never mind purchase them to begin with. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Aug 14 2006, 11:03 AM |
A new/updated version of this is being created by tlc and myself, for guidelines on militaries and such, so we'll have something for y'all soon |
Posted by: Quirrith Aug 14 2006, 12:24 PM |
Myroria and her colonies are set in the Age of Enlightenment, with some modern technology mixed in too. Our army is equipped with modern weapons, but 1700's tactics. We find guerrilla warfare no better than murder. We are extremely capitalizt, and like Falcania, privatization is completely used. |
Posted by: The Lowland Clans Aug 14 2006, 12:52 PM |
First things first, if your planning on participating in the war to come, go buy/borrow Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising. It is the closest thing we have to an analog to a war on this tech level and scale. And it's a big book, so get reading! |
Posted by: Falcania Aug 14 2006, 04:03 PM |
I love the gratuitous stickying of your intellectual property. Thanks for the recommendation, TLC. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Aug 14 2006, 04:12 PM | ||
That stickying was at TLC's suggestion, btw, as when this war does happen ,we'd like it to happen well and without the usual crap that accompanies it. Plus that book is a double-recommendation from us both, too. |
Posted by: Quirrith Aug 14 2006, 08:49 PM |
I'm not planning on participating in the war because I'm armed neutral |
Posted by: Falcania Aug 14 2006, 09:18 PM |
You'll damn well have to participate when Falcon gets rolling. You'll be nearby, and you'll be SAAS, which is excuse enough. |
Posted by: Septentrionia Aug 14 2006, 09:37 PM |
what about us, French, who can't get access to that book? |
Posted by: Khazaron Aug 14 2006, 10:22 PM |
For Khazaron I've been thinking of running almost like the Soviets in WWII seemed to run. Have craploads of men literally clogging up the battlefield and keeping the enemy occupied. Add to that use of special forces to systematically cripple the enemy C&C and that's basically what I was wanting to move my nation to. Although since my area of knowledge for warfare is either in the medieval, roman eras, or the science-fictiony/future kind, I'm not exactly knowledgeable about the more modern stuff. Any RP advice from the vets out there would much appreciated. |
Posted by: Lamoni Aug 15 2006, 02:27 AM | ||||
I recommend that book as well. |
Posted by: Az-cz Aug 15 2006, 10:22 AM |
I don't know about NS Economy, but the regular NS thing can't be trusted. My economy went from imploded to reasonable just by making beaches pay to play. |
Posted by: The Lowland Clans Aug 15 2006, 12:02 PM | ||
Well, your nation is new and less established, so it's easier for your stats to change. |
Posted by: Bedistan Aug 15 2006, 02:09 PM | ||
Well, NSEconomy works entirely from the "official" NS stats via the XML feed, so anything that happens on NS itself will be reflected there. |
Posted by: The Lowland Clans Aug 22 2006, 02:15 PM |
Well, progress update from my side of the field. Something we need to do now would be to establish an agreed upon timeline standard for everybody to use during the war. This is perhaps the biggest headache, so the best thing for everybody to do would be to start haggling it out now before anything else. My side of the thread is about 3/4s of the way finished, and should be done by the end of the week. |
Posted by: Milchama Aug 22 2006, 08:40 PM |
Well then where are those AO time zones that were proposed a bit back. Let's force that through and use that. |
Posted by: Casari Aug 22 2006, 08:58 PM |
Naaa, we'd need some real time to NS time formula that would be overcomplicated and would squeeze the sheer joy out of Roleplaying anything. Well, unless we're too far down that track already. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Aug 23 2006, 11:39 AM | ||
That's not quite what TLC meant, Milch, he means more of a 'how much RL time equals one day of NS time?' for instance |
Posted by: Septentrionia Aug 25 2006, 05:56 PM |
If we consider that a NSWC takes a month to happen, and that a WC happens every 4 years, that would mean roughly 1 week = 1 year... But a good timeline would be 1 week = 1 month EDITed the post |
Posted by: Lamoni Aug 25 2006, 10:07 PM | ||
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0399131493/sr=1-1/qid=1156561611/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3409641-6714536?ie=UTF8&s=books That link should help you, Oli. Though, I sense that you were being ironic. |
Posted by: Delesa Sep 28 2006, 10:41 PM |
hey has this war happened? if so can someone direct me so i can read it? As for the Mighty Commonwealth Army, we believe the good 'ol days when the red coats ruled the earth and the mighty wooden frigates patroled the seas. Tactics is #1. But stiking fast and hard in unexpected places is our plan. A good book to read is the 13 rules of war, my an alexander or something, but he uses examples like alexander the great and napoleon bonaparte(my hero by the way). |
Posted by: Lamoni Sep 28 2006, 10:48 PM |
The war hasn't started yet. |
Posted by: Delesa Sep 28 2006, 10:51 PM |
exellent muhahaha |
Posted by: Falcania Aug 30 2012, 06:18 PM |
Man, past-me was an idiot. This is why you don't let 15-year-olds run countries. Anyway, I was wondering if there were any links on the new forum that the original authors would like to replace the old, gone-ified Jolt forum links with. |
Posted by: Andossa Se Mitrin Vega Sep 20 2012, 07:42 AM | ||
My how times change. I remember feeling inadequate when prepring for that last major war (then RL made me miss it). Since my return I have put a lot of work into transforming a miserable defense force into an elite powerhouse. I may not have the population base that some of you have, but a 60 trillion dollar defense budget goes a long way to leveling the playing field. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Oct 11 2012, 09:14 AM | ||
Just think, that was was fought with nations of 3-4 years old... 6 years ago. If we keep with the NS stats for population growth, this could be staggering. Plus y'all need to give me some leeway to go crazy enough to hold off all of you at once if I'm the only one on my side if it's Starblaydia stick again :/ |
Posted by: West Guiana Oct 11 2012, 09:39 AM |
"Why such talk of war always, where is the talk of improving civil rights or political freedoms. Isn't it funny those who wage war the most have the lowest literacy rates or lowest funding towards public education." - Pres. Crawford, 1993 I think I might just have a presidential election while the whole region is at war, showing that there are some non-war mongering nations left! Plus my budget doesn't allow for expensive wars according to NSeconomy: $294,499,686,727.68. Then again I only rp with 559.4 million people. |
Posted by: Starblaydia Oct 11 2012, 09:42 AM | ||
Just to say, I'm not (and I doubt anyone else is) planning on dragging the region into war any time soon - my point in this thread was that when it does happen (which is very rarely in this region, as there hasn't been one since the one this thread was created to lay the groundwork for all those years ago. |
Posted by: West Guiana Oct 11 2012, 09:46 AM | ||||
Rp wise, your nation is located right above Legalese who is located right above me. To close for comfort! |
Posted by: Starblaydia Oct 11 2012, 09:47 AM | ||||||
And don't forget that piece of land you're on was totally ravaged by that particular war as first I invaded, then eventually got thrown back |
Posted by: West Guiana Oct 11 2012, 09:50 AM | ||||||||
Well then look what i've made it into a beautiful utopia for freedom. I might join in if this is takes off, after all the last time I've ever updated my fact book was nearly two years ago. And the only rping i've done since then is sports which does get boring after a while |